Figure out what your clients will pay for with Abhishek Kumar

Lex:

How well do you really know your clients?

We all talk a good game about target audience, but when it comes down to it, most of us are working off of assumptions. I almost never talk about customer research because it's boring and a lot of us think that we know what our customers are thinking, feeling, and doing.

So we skip over that part, even if it's told to us over and over again, we jump right to selling. And it's only when we do hit barriers there that we backtrack and actually start talking to our clients to really hear what they're facing, what their situations are, what motivates them and what's driving them to pay for a solution. But today we're going to talk about customer research and it's because I've met a market researcher who's actually connecting the dots between research and sales.

Abhishek Kumar is the CEO of Deep Research, and he's not turning out reports or transcripts, he's not doing PowerPoints. What he's doing is turning conversations into copy and case studies that actually converts leads into sales. His tagline is, stop guessing what your customers want and build what they'll actually pay for.

How does he do it? That's exactly what we talk about in today's episode, and I cover how you can get in front of your clients, even the busy ones, what to talk to them about and how to turn those discussions into deals.

I'm Lex Roman. I help creative entrepreneurs make smarter marketing betts, and you're tuned in to the Low Energy Leads show.

Lex:

Abhishek, welcome to the show.

Abhishek:

Hey, Lex. Good to be back.

Lex:

We're so excited to dive into how people can leverage the voices of their customers in their marketing. I think it is one of the biggest keys to growth is really hearing from your customers and then taking the words that they're saying, the language they're using and moving it into your marketing. But I want to start by talking about your company, how your company came about and what you do. So can you share with us when you started working for yourself?

Abhishek:

Yeah, this was January of this year when I quit my full-time job in it. I was actually freelancing as a market researcher for two years, but I had a full-time job in it, and I quit that in the January of this year, better my own agency and then brought my existing clients under the agency. And since then, because research is, they're smaller projects, they run for four to eight weeks. So right now, after I guess February March, we started getting clients who we didn't know. So this was outreach for, and now we have been building that business over time.

Lex:

Amazing. Wow. It's only been a year. I didn't know that.

Abhishek:

Yeah.

Lex:
How did you find your very first client?

Abhishek:

My very first client was from this community called Trends VC. It's like a research community where the editor in chief, he shares reports on what are the trending things in software. And so that's where I got my first client from. This person called Wit. He's a business person in Thailand who owns this travel company and he wanted a bit of research on what he wants to do next.

Lex:

And had you been actively in that community before or were you just joining that when you started this business? What was your relationship like?

Abhishek:

I had known the editor of the community for almost two years. I had read their reports on and off, but when I quit my job in January, it was very purposeful. I paid for the community and it started being very active. And the good thing was they have this thing called a daily standup, and the more you interact with people, the better it is. So that's where he started posting regularly and then people would start commenting like, Hey, what are you doing research on? And then that's where the conversation started happening and I started going on these founder coffee chats with a bunch of people, and I think I've got three customers from that community at this point. So it's been really fruitful

Lex:

And communities has been a big lead source for you. You've been really active in communities, that's been a big part of your business building. Can you share with us a little bit about your community strategy and how that gets you clients?

Abhishek:

Yeah, so most of our clients at this point have currently come from communities, and we are very active in six or seven communities where you have early stage founders who are sharing ideas, thinking about building a business, and in some cases they have a business and now they're thinking about growth and other stuff. And in those communities, we actually try to go on three to four founder coffee chats every single week.

Those are very casual, me sharing about my business, them sharing about their business, and in very rare instances, they have an immediate need for research, but in most cases it's just talking about stuff. You build a connection with these people and two months down the line, they either need it or they meet somebody who needs it. And for in the past quarter, most of our clients have come from these communities, but these conversations were had in March, April of this year, and now those people are coming back with recommendations or they have a need and now they know that they spoke to this guy who does market research.

So communities have been a big part of our business. Other things that we really are active on is if they have a daily standup, we do do those every single day. If they have a WINS channel, whenever we do something good for our clients, we share that. So in some cases we have seen people who are our current clients, but they were like, Hey, I was reading about you, but when you posted in the WINS channel that this is a result that your client got. That's when I pulled the trigger.

Lex:

One of the things I think just to narrow in on that is so unique about the way that you framed your company is that when a lot of people think about market research, they think reports, they think focus groups, they think attitudes, consumer trends, things like that. But what you're doing is actually much more targeted at marketing and how do companies actually build the things that people want to buy and connect the dots from what their customers are saying, their customer mindset to money in the bank for this company. So can you share with us a little bit about how you work, what you're offering now to founders?

Abhishek:

Yeah, yeah, certainly. And so one of the things that we realized is market research for most people is very vague and they don't know what the deliverables are. So that is something that we have made very clear on our website and wherever I go on calls, it's like we actually speak to your clients. We go on calls with them, we let them write lengthy emails, just talk about stuff, and we try to keep our questions very open-ended and the only clear validation is money in the bank.

And there are some cases where the foundries in the idea validation states, so they haven't actually built the product, which means they can't take any money. And even in those cases, we try to validate to an extent where we can make sure that, okay, even if they have not spent money with you, they've spent money on a similar problem with others, or they've spent six months or at least a few months trying to solve that problem, it's a really painful problem in their life, and that's when you're able to validate it.

Now the other part of it is most founders when they think about research or customer interviews, they only think about the product end of things, and that's where it stops for them, which feature should I build? Or much like a support ticket where you are like, okay, these are the features that we can improve.

But what we realized is you can use those interviews not only to that, but also feed a lot of those insights into your next marketing campaigns, into your next growth chat channels, into your website copy, where you can improve the onboarding, you can improve the activation of users and things like that. So we've built a standardized report where we do all of those things through these interviews because there's not a lot of incremental effort that goes into fielding those insights versus just like product insights. So little things that we're really focused on just to use those insights but also feed it to the product and the marketing strategy over time.

Lex:

And that's a big gap. I mean, companies have had that gap for many years, and small businesses have that gap often where there's just a disconnect there between people who might be interested in buying and the people who are making the product or the service and figuring out what exactly those people are saying and sort of weaving that through is such a genius way to approach market research.

One of the challenges I see people face when they are, especially if they're in a place where they don't currently understand that much about their buyers, maybe their early stage or maybe they've been sort of selling to a variety of people, there's not a clear pattern there is that if they're going out to do the kind of work that you're doing, you're trying to talk to your buyers. They're not sure how they can know if they're talking to buyers. Exactly. As you said, the only validation is money in the bank. So how do you think about recruiting people for these conversations to make sure they're buyers?

Abhishek:

Yeah, a lot of it depends on who these buyers are. So if you're doing research in the dating market, you might move these people in cafes. If you're doing research on hr, you go to LinkedIn. If you're doing research on, I don't know, startup founders, for me, I go to these communities. So that's a very broad thing.

Now, within these broader communities, you will have niche buyer personas that will be afraid for your product. And I guess initially when you don't have an idea in terms of, okay, my audience is startup founders, but who among startup founders? If you don't have that idea, I would suggest that just go on 10 calls with startup founders and over time you will start to see patterns.

For example, we are doing this research for a founder who wants to build something for building agencies, and we started speaking to a bunch of people, and now after eight or seven or eight calls, we have started to realize that people who have been in this agency space for more than five years, most of the business comes through reputation.

Abhishek:

So they don't care about a new solution in the market, but people who are new to this space who have been in the business of one or two years, they're still struggling with leads, and that's why we can actually ask these people to test the product that my client is building. So within that broader niche, we were able to find a sub niche. Now that's not where it ends. There's certainly going to be more insights as we start speaking with more people. But now we have gone from stage one to stage two, which is we speak to bid writers, freelancers in the bidding space, but only those that have been in the business for one year or less than a year or maybe one and a half years or so.

Lex:

Yeah. Okay. So this is that story you just shared highlights something that I see founders deal with a lot, which is they think their market is one thing, but then some of those people, or maybe all of those people are actually not problem aware or solution shopping and maybe there's a subset or maybe it's a whole different crowd. How do you have those conversations with founders? How should our listener think about, are these people your people or should you move on to a different niche?

Abhishek:

Yeah, so one is you will have, in most cases you will have social signals. So HR is talking about, Hey, I'm hiring this person. Or take for example, we have this company who wanted to validate their ID and IT outsourcing, and they wanted to speak to a bunch of founders while are looking to outsource IT related jobs. And I guess one way of finding those signals is people who are regularly posting in these Slack communities that, Hey, we have this job profile that's empty.

We are going to pay a $5,000 reward to anybody who recommends us somebody. Or you go to LinkedIn and you see, okay, which person has reposted this job in the past few months? So those are jobs that are not getting fed, and now one, you know that they have the money. Two, they're spending time looking for a solution, and now you can go to them and tell them, Hey, I'm doing research on this thing and we shall talk about it.

So one is social signals. The other is if you are building a solution, I really try to find, even if take for example, going back to the bid writers example, when I speak to these people who don't have a lot of experience in this space, I'm going to find, okay, if you are looking for leads, what is the amount of money that you have spent in the past year doing that? Or how much time do you spend every single week looking for leads? What are the current challenge that you have explored and are not working for you? You want to understand those things because if they're spending a huge amount of time or money, and then you can go back to them and say, okay, this is a solution that I paid and they're more likely to use your solution.

The other thing is if you understand how much money they're spending, it gives a good insight into how you can price your own products because hey, I'm spending, I don't know, a hundred dollars. You go back to them and tell them, Hey, you pay us $50 for this because you're going to be one of our first customers. You're going to test this product for us, and these are the benefits that you will get from this product, and then they're more likely to use the product. So those are the key things that I look for.

Lex:

Yeah, that's powerful. Just like what are they doing now and how closely does that map to people who are solution shopping? It's like, oh, we're already spending money on this. We're already looking to solve this problem. We've explained that or shared that somewhere. What about a lot of the folks that I work with, their customers aren't necessarily posting a lot online about that stuff. How do you think about recruiting these invisible buyers that are out there?

Abhishek:

Those are just, it's a lot of it's heavy work actually. So it's finding okay where these people might hang up and then just messaging them. So one tough scenario that we have right now is one of our clients wants to speak to tour operators, and these are a really tough punch to get. We have run an email campaign and then we had a good open rate, but then nobody actually came up on calls and now we said, okay, this is not working.

We went to LinkedIn and we started messaging people there and now LinkedIn. So we basically messaged people who had only opened both of our emails. So we pulled that list, found the LinkedIn profiles, and now we are messaging people there. And that's where we have started to see responses from people. Some people are interested, some people are not. But then it was a tough thing to do and especially market research.

Abhishek:

It's not like a magic wand solution that happens in seven days or so. It's an ongoing process and in some cases you find buyer personas that are really easy to speak to. In other cases, you have buyer personas that are really tough to speak to. Now you can go about finding them if you don't have the budget to do that, but if you have the money, what you can do is there are some websites out there that will find these via personas for you, especially if you are targeting high net worth individuals or you are targeting head of marketing, head of hrs.

Those people are really tough to get on calls just through emails or LinkedIn just because they don't have a lot of time on the calendar. And that's where you can use other services to bring these people in. But in most cases, people are fairly easy to speak to in other cases where they are not. It's just go multichannel, find other ways to find these people, and it takes a while. It takes, it is a grind sometimes.

Lex:

What are some of those recruiting services? I've never heard of those. You're not talking about usertesting.com, you're talking about something else. What are those things?

Abhishek:

So I don't have specific names, but there are, because I actually asked my VA to do this, so I don't have the specific names, but there are services where you can put a bounty, say I need 10 hrs that I need to speak to, and I'll pay $50 to any person who comes up on a call and they will go and find these people. Obviously they have their own margins as well, but there are specific services that do that. Yeah,

Lex:

I love it. Get yourself a head hunter, find these high net worth people. Yeah, we definitely have a lot of folks in growth trackers and folks listening to the show who are targeting people that are really busy targeting people that have families and work lives and a lot going on. And so it is challenging to get folks on the phone. And that I think is one of the big pitfalls in market research. And that's one of the reasons why we're moving away from things like focus groups because when I used to work with companies that did that, it was like people who didn't have jobs who had time to come talk about what they like about cars or snacks or whatever. And it's like, yes, for consumer attitude stuff, that's fine, but it doesn't quite play the same for high ticket services, right?

Abhishek:

Yeah. And also I guess on the flip side, if they're difficult to speak to, then also not a lot of people are speaking to them. So if you can get those insights somehow that it's going to be really good. One thing that we've seen working really well with people who are tough to speak to is you just send them a friend request on LinkedIn and just try to have a conversation with them and after a week or so you tell them, Hey, I'm doing this research and would you be open to it?

And in those cases we have seen at least a 50% conversion rate where they are more likely to reply. I mean research, it's transactional, like you are asking for somebody's time to help you build a product, but if you can build a relationship with them, give them some time instead of just sending them a cold email and thinking, Hey, this person is going to come up on a call for 30 minutes for me. Think about it relationship building way, and if you give them time, take it slow, it's going to happen. How

Lex:

Do you do that outreach? What kind of context do you give them in those outreach notes?

Abhishek:

So I tell them I'm doing research on X, Y, Z, and also I tell them, okay, this is who I am and I'm building a solution in this space, and I make it very clear that we are in the idea validation phase. We don't have anything to sell, but this is what we are looking at. And in most cases, people are open to it. In other cases, if they're not open to it, then you certainly get a reply that we are not interested and that's good as well because you don't want to spend time thinking he might give me an answer. If it's a clear no, then it's a good thing you can move on to the other people out there.

But yeah, I do give them context that we are building a solution and then it's a very simple message of, Hey, we are doing research on this and I saw that you work in this space, will you be willing to share 15 minutes of your time on a call? And I can ask you a few questions. If they don't reply in the second email, I tell them, if you're too busy, I can also send you questions via email. And that's where we see more conversion because most people don't want to hop on a call with a random stranger, but if they've opened the first email on the second, see, okay, I can probably give them an answer via email, then they're more open to it. And also they're happy to write lengthy answers because we've had some first touchpoint with them.

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Lex:

Let's talk about what that conversation is. One of the things that for our listener, they're probably interviewing their own customers. So often I see people sort of like they get excited about their business, they want to get you excited about it, but we want to avoid that in a research context. So what are some of the questions you're asking to try to validate? This person has the problem, they're solution shopping or they have solution shop?

Abhishek:

Yeah, so I guess when you're trying to validate an idea, think of this as just trying to understand your customers and forget about your solution at all. In the very beginning for the first few questions, you want to understand who that person is, what they do full time, what were they looking for when they came across your solution, or if you're trying to validate an idea, what are the other solutions they have looked at and why it hasn't worked out for them.

You want to understand all of that context before you even talk about your solution. And the reason why that's important is because as founders, we really clinging to our ideas and our product is the best one. And that's when we sort of do research, but it's not very fruitful because then you might ask questions like, Hey, do you like this? And if the other person is agreeable, then he's like, yeah, I like this.

If those kinds of insights are not very useful, whereas if somebody is critiquing you, telling you, okay, this is why I love this, this is why I love this homepage, or this is why I love this particular feature in the product, this is why I don't like this, this might be a blocker. Go to understand all of these things without falling in love with your own ideas. And also don't ask questions where you sort of feed answers into their mouth. Just ask open-ended questions.

If you are trying to show them a UI, just share your screen and tell them, okay, what do you think about this? What thoughts come to your mind? What's understandable, what's not understandable? And things like that. You want to get a lot of insights. In some cases what I've seen is you hop on your first few calls and you get a really good response out there and the person is ready to buy and then you immediately start thinking about sales. And I don't think you should do that at that point because it's too early to when you've had less than five calls, it's too early to see if you've actually validated the idea. So hold your horses two more calls, at least 10 of those, and then you can start to see patterns on, okay, this is what these people are saying, this is what these people are not, and take some time to digest all of that information. If you're building a good product, sales are obviously going to come, but don't jump to conclusions immediately.

Lex:

What about for people who already have something? So a lot of the folks listening right now, they already have something in place so they're not necessarily pre idea or for example, they're actively working in their business and they're just trying to understand how do I get people buying easier? How do I find my real excited, problem aware solution shopping buyer? One of the things you talked about earlier was the idea of they're already spending money on this or they're already solution shopping for this kind of thing, so what are some ways that you validate that in the call that they're going to spend money on this?

Abhishek:

I take it through my personal example of how I went through validating ideas along the way and then building my services. So in the beginning of last year, I was selling customer interviews. That is what I was selling as a service, and people were paying several like $500 for the service because in their mind they were like, are doing the research, but as a founder don't want to speak to people. Abhishek is going to come and he's going to speak to my customers. So that was my buyer persona. Any founder who wants me to speak to their customers, I'll do that. And now I started thinking about, okay, what is the value that I'm providing? And I go on these calls, I have a lot of insights, I ask all these questions, maybe I'm the best person to feed those insights back into the product recommendations and the marketing recommendations as well.

And so I went back to these founders, I tell told them, okay, this is what I'm doing, and now it's going to be $4,000. And they're like, well, it's too much because all of my existing customers at that time were indie hackers, so these were people building solar businesses, building smaller software products, and they didn't have the money to do that. Now, for me as a service provider, that was a problem.

And so I started interviewing a bunch of founders who were building scalable startups or founders who had sold their business and now they were thinking of a new idea. So in these cases they have either raised money or they already have money through a business that they sold. And that's where I was able to charge from somewhere around like 500 to 4,000 and now made variables became, okay, I'll help you validate your idea and do all of these things.

And now in the past couple months, we had a lot of conversations on me trying to think, okay, how do I get better clients? And then how do I increase my deliverables? And again, I started thinking about who would be the bias in this case. And we saw the biggest package is it was like a $10,000 research plus strategy project where not only are we giving them product and marketing recommendations, but we are actually helping them implement the UI UX part of it.

And in that case, the actual buyer persona changed from a founder who is thinking of building something to a private limited company that's making a lot of money, but now they're thinking of building a new business division and they have money to spend on research. But not only that, once the research is done, they have the resources to hire people and then build a team and then put the resources into that validated idea.

And so in my case, over time, I've jumped from one buyer person or to the other buyer person or depending on what I want to do. And in each step it has been a lot of testing, a lot of speaking to founders and understanding, okay, my current buyer persona cannot pay me that money and I can't provide them that value because it's not affordable for me as a business person.

So now I want to diversify from this buyer persona to the other buyer persona. Now that's not necessarily that I have touched the other buyers that I've added one more buyer person or to my current capabilities.

Lex:

Yeah. Alright, let's pivot and talk about how you're listening. You're talking to all those different buyers, you're hearing great stuff. You're getting just like insights Citi. How do you take what people have said and turn it into messaging for your landing pages, for your emails and stuff like that?

Abhishek:

So as a founder, we are really biased when we think about how we should talk about our product. And if you go on calls, if those are not recorded, you might think that, okay, this person spoke with these. They might speak similarly to what you said, but when you're trying to implement the messaging part of thing, it's really important to focus really deeply on the words they use to describe your product or your service or the words they use to describe their problem.

And in those cases, what I always recommend is record those calls, transcribe them, go through the entire transcript, reading everything and highlighting things wherever they're mentioned the problem or the audio solution and highlight their exact words. And once you have 10, 20 different transcripts, you will start to see certain words that are coming up over and over again, a certain way of speaking about their problem, a certain way of describing a solution.

So when if you are a good copywriter, do it on your own. If you are not, then probably hire a freelance copywriter who can take those words and feed it back into your landing copy because you might think that your users really agree with you and they are saying basically the same things, but if you use different words, then it's not going to convert as well.

If the buyer, if they come to your website and they're like, they have a certain way of framing that problem, and if they see these exact words on your landing page, they're like, this person gets me. I'm going to give my money to this person versus the five other websites that I visited.

Lex:

Yeah, it's amazing how that one word that the buyer uses, it might be a synonym, but it just comes across different when it comes from them.

Abhishek:

Yeah.

Lex:

Speaking of that, one of the things I think is cool that you offer is you offer testimonials and case studies and stuff like that to your clients. How do you think about the role of social proof in this? Speaking of the customer quotes?

Abhishek:

Yeah. Yeah. One part obviously is the social proof, and this is again from my experience, I bought your book lick and I was thinking about buying your book for at least a month, and I am not sure how many reviews it has on Gumroad, but I was thinking, okay, I don't have actually a lot of people speaking about this. I'm like, her website looks really cool, she knows this stuff, but this book thing, I'm really doubtful.

And then I guess you updated the page, or maybe Gumroad did, and I opened it one day and I saw 70 people had bought it and within 10 minutes I had paid for the book. So I had gone to your website, I listened to your podcast and stuff, I knew that you knew your stuff, but it took me a while to build that trust and it happened within 10 minutes as soon as there was this testimonial of 70 other people buying the book.

And people really do care. And that's the reason why I actively post in the wind channel of communities that I'm part of, I actively tell people, okay, this is the progress that I made, and then keep them in the loop because it takes time for people to build that trust and pay you money. The other part of it is if you have a service that a lot of people are buying and you have different buyer personnel, in some cases, you actually want to tell people that this is how you can use this service.

And so if you have those case studies on your website, they can come to the website, look at the use cases and see, oh, alright, maybe the services for me as well. I can use it at this way because they have similar customers. You can use that. The other part of it is you on onboard a customer, once a customer has paid you money, when you're onboarding them in your first few email campaigns, you can send them these case studies and they can look through, okay, so in my case it could be, okay, once the research was done, this is how many previous customer used the research to build the next features to use it in his marketing campaigns.

So they have a better understanding of what should I do with whatever you are providing, whether it's a product or a service, how do I use this product? So one, obviously the obvious one is trust and helping you get more conversions, but the other part is telling people how you can use this product in a better way so that it's more useful to them as well.

Lex:

Yeah. We see Wilson and Olly doing this really great with the Senja's marketing

Abhishek:

Stuff. Oh, they're amazing.

Lex:

Yeah, because Senja is a review platform and they're always like, here's how you can use reviews in your landing pages. Here's how you can use them in your social media. And it's like, oh, okay. I'm getting more ideas from the way that they're marketing here and they're not assuming that we know.

Abhishek:

One thing that I actually picked from the founders of Senja is they pick this really small niche of testimonials and you go to the website and you see different use cases and it's like amazing things can happen when you pick one thing and regularly think deeply about what are the different ways in which you can use that one thing across different platforms and across different things within your business. And they have done a really good job at it.

Lex:

Abhishek, if you could give one tip for our audience on how to connect with their best clients, what would it be?

Abhishek:

Start speaking with people and don't make it time-based. Give them time. Take a few weeks to start speaking with people. If you don't exactly know who your buyer is, just to go broad and start to narrow down over time, you will start to get signals on which people are more interested. And whenever you speak to somebody, try to write it down what the use case is, what the buyer person is, because if you can see the data in front of your eyes, it's going to be more easier for you to make those decisions. But yeah, I guess the worst case is you don't know who your buyer is. And just to go broad and start nicheing down over time.

Lex:

Yeah, talk to your buyers, single biggest growth lever, get that market insight. Is there anything that you're doing lately that you'd like to share with listeners?

Abhishek:

Oh, I guess on the agency side, like I told you, we just added product and marketing strategy, so that's something that we added to our services. So if you are a business owner is looking to validate an idea, or if you have any existing business and want to understand your customers better and feed those insights back into your product and marketing strategy, we can help.

Lex:

I love it. Go check out Deep Research. I love how you guys do your packaging. The whole way you frame research I think is so unique. So definitely recommend y'all go check that out. Thank you so much for your time and your insights.

Abhishek:

Thank you, Lex. This was awesome.

Lex:

The way Abhishek breaks down research into smaller projects makes it faster and more actionable. For small business owners like us, it means that we can have these conversations in an ongoing way and continuously fold what we're learning into the way that we're marketing and selling our services.

If you've been having a hard time finding your buyers or the messaging that you're putting out isn't quite resonating with them, talking with them can be the fastest way to figuring out what those gaps are, pulling the exact phrasing they use, the way they state their problem, the way they talk about your solution can shortcut any translation issues that you might have in your marketing speak. And if you really don't want to talk to them, Abhishek's team is available to help. I've linked the deep research website in the show notes.

By the way, the Stay Booked Roadmap, which Abhishek mentioned in today's episode is going on sale for Black Friday.

I created the roadmap after many conversations with my own clients where I realized they were missing some of the basics of how to get leads and close sales. The roadmap walks you through it, step-by-step, complete with templates.

You can get a sample on my store and you can stay tuned on the Low Energy Leads Newsletter for that Black Friday sale.

If you like this episode, you might also like the show I did about how wrong I was about my own ideal clients. I talk about some of the warning signs that I miss and how you can avoid my same mistakes so that you can move on from browsers quickly and spot your buyers faster.

Until next time, keep your energy low until the value will be high.